|
|
Go to page 1~2~3 [Next] | ||||||||||
EscapeMaster Loyal user 296 Posts |
I do not really appreciate all this talk of having infinite suppliers of escape equipment to help the art progress. If anything needs to progress it is the performers, who can do so simply by getting out in the real world and escaping.
Many on this board could easily imagine a hundred clever ways to get out of a box and quickly conjure up another fifty or so clever ones given half an hour to think. But if a newcomer were to ask me how to get out of a box on a real stage in front of a real audience I would say simply to use a box without a bottom. A foolproof method which could be played for speed. The box could even be roped and chained, the lid nailed and, contrary to intuition, such a method would actually permit quite a thorough inspection. But I would wager that not a single reader of these boards would ever dare use such a ruse. We are after clever mechanical devices (why we like hancuffs in the first place). Now the things that Ian McColl do are truly fabulous and we greatly appreciate him and can find many uses for his products. But do not be deceived into thinking a hundred McColls each with a different line will make us, make our performances, make our art progress or be better appreciated. |
|||||||||
MarkTripp Special user Michigan 618 Posts |
Actually it is MUCH easier than that, with less concerns....
But when I pointed out how important it was to have a solid base in magic methods it was rejected. My challenge box escape depended on the use of a topit to switch out the varnished nails for the ones I sprayed with sillicone! You have NO idea how easy it will push apart if you do that! But lets not wake up those who think you don't have to master the basics first! Excellent post and point. Mark Tripp Quote:
On 2005-01-17 05:44, EscapeMaster wrote: A PS to this. Magicians are just as bad. My DVD from Camirand should be out next month. It will get luke warm to bad reviews because the things on it are for performers, not people looking to fool the boys at the magic meeting, or lust after a cleaver gimmick. The best prediction chest in the world is on that tape, and it will not be used for the same reasons you quote. |
|||||||||
The Donster Inner circle 4817 Posts |
This is a great subject. but not evreyone is handy in building. or own all the tools needed to do so this is why we pay people for their services.
|
|||||||||
Cliffg37 Inner circle Long Beach, CA 2491 Posts |
How much work do you want to do is an intereseting question. The idea of a box or a bag with no botom is an old and very workable idea. The fear of discovery of such a gimmick lies in a lack of confidence in showmanship. A performare who presents a situation well, need never worry about a spectator looking for such a thing. Most audience members persented with a box might think "trap door" but who would think "no bottom"? only a magician.
When I did my handcuff challenges in college, I used real cuffs. They were examinable and a spectator who wished (almost never happened) could try them on to be sure they were real. Would I have used gaffed cuffs if I had them? probably not. aside from the though of scrutiny and being found out. There was also a matter of pride. I really don't have a key. I really am locked up. I really can get out very quickly. Of course these challenges were all done close up. Had I been on a stage, it would have been different. I don't know if what I have said is of any use to anyone, but they are my thoughts and ramblings. P.S. hey Mark, be sure to let us know the where when and how of your DVD distribution.
Magic is like Science,
Both are fun if you do it right! |
|||||||||
Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Mark,
Your proposition wasn't REJECTED; it was QUALIFIED. You tend to speak in ABSOLUTE terms on almost everything. You said a performer COULD NOT be a good escape performer unless they put studying magic before escapes (ABSOLUTE). I pointed out that such an absolute statement is not true. I would be the first to say, however, that a thorough knowledge of BOTH magic and escapes makes for a better, more versatile performer. If you could quit being so rigid and contentious, you would have fewer 'fights' on your hands. Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
|||||||||
MarkTripp Special user Michigan 618 Posts |
<<<Your proposition wasn't REJECTED; it was QUALIFIED.>>>
With all due respect to you, the entire point was rejected. You yourself said that it was not necessary to have magic skills to be an escape artist of note. I am still waiting to hear of ONE ea of note who passed it by <<<You tend to speak in ABSOLUTE terms on almost everything.>>> No sir, this is not a correct statement. I speak in absolute terms on those things I know to be absolute. Not quite the same thing <<<You said a performer COULD NOT be a good escape performer unless they put studying magic before escapes (ABSOLUTE).>>> Again, not whatr I said. I said NO escape artist of note EVER got there without paying magic dues first. <<<I pointed out that such an absolute statement is not true.>>> Yes, you said it, but never named one escape artist of note who proves your point. I named a dozen who made mine. <<<I would be the first to say, however, that a thorough knowledge of BOTH magic and escapes makes for a better, more versatile performer.>>> Interesting, but again not my point <<<If you could quit being so rigid and contentious, you would have fewer 'fights' on your hands.>>> I could equally say if you were less defensive and listened better, you might get the point better. But I am not going to resort to lables here. If you have an escape artist of note who did not master magic first, name them. If not, then my point is made. As to fights, that comes from people who are dreaming and don't want to wake up. They get mad when you shake them.... Thanks for your input. Mark Tripp |
|||||||||
KerryJK Special user Northampton UK 621 Posts |
A thread in another area linked to a wonderfully relevant article by Max Maven at http://www.brickmag.com/current/maven.html .
My personal journey, and probably most here who came from the angle of starting out doing escapes as genuine challenges for fun, was figuring out how to make those sorts of escapes entertaining onstage and gradually coming to accept, in their proper context, the gimmicks I'd previously taken as lazy workarounds. In other words, two years ago I was thinking like a juggler (which, at the time, is what I was), only now am I starting to properly think like a magician, so I'm coming around to using bottomless boxes and even (eek!) gaffed cuffs in order to enhance the routine. A comparison that Mr. Tripp may or may not like given his other vocation as a grappling instructor (though I would like to hear his comments), is the history of Pro Wrestling. In wrestling there have always been (though they are now nowhere near as predominant as they used to be) the shooters, ie those who really can compete for real as submission wrestlers; for example, the old British wrestling style developed in the wrestling gyms of the North, where the coal miners would compete in genuine submission wrestling, giving rise to the hookers and shooters who took their skills into the pro rings, such as Bert Assirati, Karl Gotch and Lou Thesz. The problem was, to the general populace who weren't wrestlers themselves, it wasn't necessarily entertaining and matches between two defensive wrestlers could last hours with neither man doing anything interesting. So the solution was to "work" the matches, ie put them on as exhibitions with preplanned results, so the audience would get all of the aggression and conflict without the unplanned risk of boring matches. The matches were between "good" and "bad" wrestlers in the context of scripted feuds and angles, so the audience could cheer and boo and get into it more. Also, by controlling the level of violence they could (theoretically) reduce injuries and promote wrestlers in a full time schedule of shows, though wrestlers still got hurt, especially when the hookers, who were not keen on the de-emphasis of real technique, took it upon themselves to "shoot" on inexperienced opponents in order to injure them.. Lou Thesz's autobiography "Hooker" has some >really< grisly stories. As time went on, a whole new mythology grew up around Pro Wrestling as a worked entertainment, the hookers and shooters found themselves increasingly playing second fiddle to their less skilled but more charismatic and marketable colleagues, culminating with Vince McMahon Jnr coining the phrase "sports entertainment" in the eighties. The seperate disciplines of "sports entertainment" pro wrestling and shoot grappling are now seperate entities, promoted in different ways with different skills emphasised (technique in the latter, psychology and storytelling in the former) and with only a few notable wrestlers being able to do both at the highest level. Or, to put it another way, there's those that do it for real, and those that use it as a form of entertainment. Both are serious disciplines, but the fact that Hulk Hogan and Steve Austin are much bigger mainstream celebrities than Tito Ortiz and Rickson Gracie (at least outside of Japan) is something from which you can draw your own conclusions. |
|||||||||
Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Mark,
I know you have a bee in your bonnet regarding me, personally. I am going to ask you to lose the attitude. At the same time, I'm going to acknowledge the fact that you never will. I leave you to your self-righteous anger. Steve But wait...since you want to raise points: >>You yourself said that it was not necessary to have magic skills to be an escape artist of note. I am still waiting to hear of ONE ea of note who passed it by. Yes, and I stand by it. If nobody has done it is not proof that it cannot be done. >>I speak in absolute terms on those things I know to be absolute. Not quite the same thing. I said ALMOST everything, Mark. Still, most of the posts I have read from you have been VERY absolutist. >>I said NO escape artist of note EVER got there without paying magic dues first. What some one has not done is not the same thing as what someone COULD do. >>Yes, you said it, but never named one escape artist of note who proves your point. I named a dozen who made mine. "If man were meant to fly, he'd have wings." Come off it. >>I could equally say if you were less defensive and listened better, you might get the point better. But I am not going to resort to lables here. You already have. Your comments about your 'people who' detractors were direct slams at me. >>As to fights, that comes from people who are dreaming and don't want to wake up. They get mad when you shake them.... A pot calls the kettle...! >>Thanks for your input. and sarcasm as the topper. Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
|||||||||
CARNEGIE Loyal user 267 Posts |
Wow, the verbal pugilism is in rare form today. But, back to the original post. Escape Master makes an interesting point about an infinite amount of escape suppliers is not nessasarily a good thing. The real issue is about performers getting out there and really doing it.
I remember years ago before I started performing full time. A friend of mine told me that I would learn more in the first couple months of being a full timer because of the number of performances. I didn't believe it. Then in just the first week, doing multiple performances day after day I discovered he was right. The more time in front of an audience the better you will become. And you find out fast what doesn't work. By the way, you'd loose your wager Escape Master. My first packing crate escape used a similar very bold ruse and it worked great by the way. Now on Mark Tripps comments. I'm not going to get in the middle of the war of words, but I think he is right on the money in regards to having a background in magic. Hey maybe you could get into escapology without it, but it sure would be a harder road to travel. |
|||||||||
The Donster Inner circle 4817 Posts |
To much escape stuff might be a over kill for the market. meaning if anyone could go out and buy a trick set of handcuffs etc. but having a few more may not be a bad idea either.
|
|||||||||
Cliffg37 Inner circle Long Beach, CA 2491 Posts |
You know guys, while I am interested in the philisophical discussion of what makes a magician into an escape artist etc, I am really not interested in bickering or watching other people bicker. How about we leave the philosophy where it is and mve the bickering into a private message. You can work it out, or not.
Helen, as a former Pro wrestling referee, I loved your post and history lesson. Have you read about the brilliant match between Frank Gotch and Georg Hackenschmidt back in (I think) 1901? I think that was the turning point when wrestling became rasslin'.
Magic is like Science,
Both are fun if you do it right! |
|||||||||
The Donster Inner circle 4817 Posts |
Cliff I think some Magicians get into it to Mystify their audiences More. and Evrey act needs to be Different.
|
|||||||||
Richard Sherry Veteran user Calgary, AB, Canada 313 Posts |
I agree with Helen regarding her/his comments about pro wrestling. I had a brief stint as a pro wrestler and the energy that was created during the live performances was unbelievable.When I entered the ring I felt like I could take on the world.It was phoney and most people knew it but they wanted to cheer for their heroes . .If we as EA could only capture a quarter of that frenzy we could be tied up with elastics and it wouldn't matter.It's not what we do that the audience remembers but the frenzied excitement that lingers afterword.
That's just my opinion .See Ya!!! Richard |
|||||||||
Kondini Inner circle 3609 Posts |
Still trying to work out where wrestling came into the equation but while we are there,,,,,,in the UK you had to work your passage through the ametuer ranks before turning pro and believe me it ain`t easy and it ain`t acting.
Now back to the thesis that a magical background is a foundation to escapology. I feel the main point to escapology is in it`s presentation,,,,you must be a SHOWMAN to put over an escape, you don`t have to be a Showman in order to be a magician,,,,,this skill is not taught through the ranks of magic but is of paramount importance to the escapologist / showman / entertainer. To elaborate would be impossible but for the proof of the pudding go see a showman sell a gaff, then go and see a magician sell his act,it is only then that you will understand where I am coming from. I had to learn the hard way,,,,by doing magic within a showground situation and failing,,,,to learn out there, doing it, is the only way,,,,,you will not learn from ANY written word either here or anywhere else, to try, to fail and then succeed is the only way and there are no short cuts. So instead of talking a load of bull on here, why arn`t you out there. (Im not cos Im resting !!!). |
|||||||||
Richard Sherry Veteran user Calgary, AB, Canada 313 Posts |
How about a wrestling EA.If he doesn't get out in time 10 WRESTLERS surround him and beat the crap out of him.
Donster!!!! There's a new idea for you. Richard |
|||||||||
The Donster Inner circle 4817 Posts |
Richard I'll get Pummeled by the Wrestlers but it is a good idea. or you can have the wrestlers restrained the same way and see who gets out first.
|
|||||||||
Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
In 1977, my agent made arrangements for me to appear in a wrestling demo show, with a special match of brute force vs skill.
Wild Bull Curry was to try to break a chain. If he failed, I was to get padlocked into it and try to escape. Curry was up for the idea, but for whatever reason it never took place. Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
|||||||||
Richard Sherry Veteran user Calgary, AB, Canada 313 Posts |
I remember Curry.My biggest fight involved a wrestling bear and Andre the Giant.All EA'S should take up wrestling.Learn how to promote!!
Richard |
|||||||||
The Donster Inner circle 4817 Posts |
Andre the GIANT the guy was HUGE. at least some of these Wrestlers I've Heard of.
|
|||||||||
Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Last live match I saw between the 'old-timers' was between The Wild Man from Syria, The Sheik and 'Arriba' Louis Martinez.
Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » All tied up! » » Lameting the showman (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page 1~2~3 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.05 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |